The Secret of Success: What Sets Top Salespeople Apart

Who is Jürgen Gierl, and why is sales his passion?

Kevin Hi everyone, welcome to Wavect. Today with Jürgen Gierl, a serial entrepreneur. Among his ventures, for example, WerbeAlm OHG, CryptoGifts, MediaAlm and myMerch. He's also a former regional director at Berendsohn AG. And today we're talking, cut the BS, cut the bullshit, about: what actually makes a good salesperson? So let me jump right in: hey Jürgen, thanks for taking the time. Tell us a bit about yourself. What are you passionate about? What does your day look like? And maybe you've already got the next project in the works.

Jürgen That's a lot of questions at once. Well, my passion is sales, that much is clear. Everything I've done over the last 20 years has been heavily sales-driven, usually direct sales. That's my core competence. I'm an entrepreneur, of course, but sales and entrepreneurship are incredibly closely linked. So I'd say I have decent skills as an entrepreneur, but much better skills in sales. And I believe for the young startup scene, entrepreneurship without sales skills, if you've picked that route, and there are different models for selling your products, but if you choose the classic sales route, you go to trade fairs, you visit customers and so on, it's hugely important to be genuinely good at it. Otherwise, I have to say, I've watched people like that fail very quickly, again and again.

Jürgen At trade fairs I often meet these young startup founders who are highly motivated. And there are a lot of them. My main business is promotional products, with one of my companies. So we go to trade fairs every year, lots of them of course, because that's where the innovations and new products are. And accordingly there are founder halls with 20, 30, 40 startups in them. And you can talk to young, motivated entrepreneurs. I always love that, it's great fun. The thing is, I notice that I'm the one leading the conversation, as the customer, rather than the young entrepreneur doing it. And I see a lot of them show up and be gone again soon after.

What mistakes do young founders make first when selling?

Kevin Okay, that sounds really interesting, of course. I'd like to dig into that a bit. What are the first, let's say, negatives, the first things you notice when you say they're gone again that quickly? What are the first mistakes most of them make?

Jürgen That's really hard to say. Selling is a lot of emotion and a lot of feel. There's a certain charming cheekiness that comes with sales. And that's very hard to learn. There are all kinds of approaches that try to train you in that direction. NLP is a well-known one. I did NLP training as a trainer myself. Though honestly, for me it was more of a turn-off, I have to say. Because I realized: everything they were trying to teach me, a good salesperson does automatically. It's in their blood, mirroring people and so on. They do it automatically. So selling is a lot of talent, I think, and far, far more hard work. It's like a great footballer, like Cristiano Ronaldo. He has loads and loads of talent, but he's also far more disciplined than everyone else. And for a salesperson, that's the be-all and end-all. Sure, you need talent. In Jewish tradition, I looked this up briefly because I knew this topic was coming, there's a lovely definition. It's called chutzpah, which is what a salesperson needs. And chutzpah is described in Jewish tradition like this: it's a mix of targeted, intelligent impudence, charming persistence and irresistible audacity. And that nails it exactly.

Jürgen There's no word for it in German. In Germany, sales always has a negative ring anyway, a bit sleazy and so on, this door-knocking thing I keep hearing about. In America it's completely different, but that's not the point right now. What I'm saying is: in many cultures it's completely different. They grew up with it differently. And you can see there are even words for it. And it doesn't have to carry that negative weight. In Germany, unfortunately, it does. So what am I trying to say? You need this feel for selling. You have to do the right thing at the right time. You only get very short moments with a customer where you can win their attention. We're talking spans of a few seconds. Five to seven seconds, we always used to say. After the entrance you have to be sitting down, otherwise you're out. And once you're out, it's over. That's an old sales saying: out means over. And it's true: if you can't get the attention and hold it, the whole thing is over very fast. And learning that feel, I think, is pretty difficult. It has to be in your blood a bit. You can refine it, but you can't turn a donkey into a racehorse. And if you don't have it, you just don't have it. Then you either have to buy that competence in, which I think is ultra hard. Or you really have to fight your way through for many years.

Jürgen Best thing is to join a sales company before you found anything and knock the rough edges off yourself in sales. Otherwise you'll fail nonstop once you're on your own. Not just in customer conversations, but in conversations with employees and so on. No matter who I'm talking to, it's always sales. When I talk to my lawyer, that's sales. When I talk to my tax advisor, those are sales conversations. In the end it all comes down to this: how well can I grip the person across from me emotionally? And how do I steer them through the conversation so that I get the best possible shot at closing?

Why isn't the best product enough on its own?

Jürgen Those startups I was talking about earlier, they always tell me an incredible amount about their product. You know Wolf of Wall Street, right?

Kevin Sure.

Jürgen There's a really striking example in there: sell me this pen. The pen fits my case perfectly, because that's also my core product. But why does he do that? What's behind it? He goes to the first guy and says: sell me this pen. And what does the first guy do? The first guy says: this is a fantastic pen, it has a great refill and I can write with it for ages. He takes it away and moves to the next one. The next one starts up again, and he gets the same product spiel all over. So what am I getting at? Sure, they all get that wrong. I walk up to a booth and everyone immediately tells me how awesome their product is. Everyone has the most awesome product, but that's just not sales. Sales is creating a personal connection, and as fast as possible. That's what it comes down to.

Jürgen And once you've managed that, then, and here comes the bad news, 80 percent of sales is prospecting. Grunt work. Salespeople spend at least 80 percent of their time on prospecting, not on selling. You see? So the problem is that many, many people keep training themselves, nonstop, on this presentation and closing stuff, but forget that the thing that decides everything is the prospecting and the conversation, the first five seconds and then the first five minutes. And if those two conversations are shit, you're out. Then you can present as brilliantly as you like and set up the close perfectly. If you never get to that point, there's no close. If the customer tells you to see yourself out, there's no conversation or presentation left to close from. So what am I saying? Sales is ultra hard, a whole lot of feel and a huge, huge amount of hard work.

Do good salespeople even try to convince you?

Kevin Really interesting. That reminds me of the fairly well-known saying: good salespeople never try to convince you. Would you agree with that, roughly along those lines?

Jürgen Absolutely. Well, or rather, you won't notice them convincing you. They do convince you, but in a very charming way. They bring you to a point where in the end you... So, back when I was still in sales, I've probably run 10,000 sales conversations in my life, I'd estimate. I can't say exactly, but it'll be roughly that. I don't think I tried to sell something in even five of them. At the end there was a nice selection on the table and the customer said: I'll take this, this and this. My order pad was already lying there. I just wrote down what he said. I'd taken care of all the hard facts beforehand. I'd checked everything, which quantities, which prices and so on. This classic preempting of objections: if you have a product today, whatever product, I've got 300 in my range, but whatever product or service you want to sell, there are always objections from the customer. Why didn't you want to buy? And they're always the same ones. The bad news is, or actually the good news: they're always the same. And it makes a massive difference whether I handle an objection when the customer raises it, or whether I deal with it upfront and lead him to a point where the objection looks stupid anyway and he never even raises it.

Jürgen Those are called buying hurdles. For example, a typical mistake, a typical rookie mistake is this: they sit down with the secretary and present the product because the boss has no time. Right. What am I supposed to sell the secretary? Do I even want to sell the secretary anything? Not that I'd want to put that job down. But I want to talk to the boss. And I want to talk to all the decision-makers. And if there are three business partners, I want all three sitting at that table. Otherwise I don't present anything. Then I have a realistic chance of getting to a close. With the secretary I have no chance.

How do you get past the gatekeeper?

Kevin That brings me to a really interesting point. I once did Grant Cardone's Sales University. And the line there was always that these so-called gatekeepers, the secretary for example, the people who actually stand between you and the decision-maker...

Jürgen Yes.

Kevin That you should get them to sell for you. So if you actually win them over somehow, they end up taking a lot of the work off your hands. Because of the social proof. Do you see that a bit differently? Or would you approach it differently? How do you get past that gatekeeper?

Jürgen Well, that's exactly the right question: how do I get past? How do I get to the boss together with the secretary and present to both? Because then what happens? The secretary wants to save the boss money and tends to be critical. Always an ultra difficult situation. It's better when the wife is sitting in. Why? Because she's easier to get excited. And because she's emotionally easier to reach than a business owner who's stressed, has no time, can't be bothered and so on. Especially when you sell beautiful things, it depends a bit on the product, but if you sell beautiful things, it's obviously really easy to catch her emotionally. How do I get past the door? How do I get past the snappy secretary? I think there are two routes that work. Either I go the hard route or the soft route. You'll have to pick one. It's a question of what suits you better. I think the hard route is pretty good. It works like this: I call, or I'm there in person, and say: is the boss in? My name is Jürgen Gierl. I say which company I'm from. Then on the phone I say: what it's about, I'll discuss with the boss himself. Put me through. My name is Jürgen Gierl. Then she says: I'm not allowed to put you through. Then here's what we'll do: my number is 01 blah blah blah. Tell the boss Jürgen Gierl called, he should call me back. I'd say: thank you.

Jürgen That's the hard line you can take. But it has an upside and a downside. The upside is: you very likely get through to the boss. But he assumes you're a customer. That's the downside. When he realizes you're a sales rep and want to sell something, it could backfire. The second problem with the whole thing is when you come in to present and the secretary... Because what happens after you've pulled that move? The boss hangs up and says to the secretary: did you really have to let that one through? That was a salesperson, not a customer. And so on, then she's pissed off. And when you show up, she's already critical of you and your product from the start.

Jürgen That can happen. It didn't with me. But when I arrived, I went straight for the secretary. In that moment, she was my customer. And it took me three, four minutes to get her on my side. Then she greeted me perfectly nicely, brought me a coffee, and then she was out of the picture. And I did my business with the customer, who I'd also gotten, after another two, three minutes, to the point where he saw me as a normal equal. The nice route, that's probably what many or almost all choose. You're simply nice, you say what it's about. So my line, when I went the nice route, with me it always depended on the day: I walked into the building and said: hi there, I'm the rep, I'd like to sell something. So who's buying something off me here? Right, that got me a first laugh on my side. I'd broken the ice, or not.

What hit rates are realistic in direct sales?

Jürgen Now, and here comes the bad news in this whole game. If you do direct prospecting, which is what we're talking about here, you rip open 15, more like 20 doors a day. You open 20 doors. And now let me say something about success rates. If I run around saying: look, I've got this new phone and I'd like to quickly show it, takes a minute, sure, I'll get a presentation with every customer. But that's not the goal. I want a presentation that's locked in. Where all the decision-makers are at the table. Who know the price ranges, what it's basically about, and that we're writing an order that day. That's where I want to get. I don't want to run around having random conversations. When I walk out, I need a piece of paper with a signature on it. That's the point. So all those appointments have to be locked in. And to get that locked-in appointment, I basically have to, so, if I go the soft route... Now I've lost the thread a bit, where were we headed? [unclear]

Kevin No worries.

Jürgen I'm 48, that's how it goes.

Kevin All good, Jürgen. Right, hard route, soft route. And how you get past those gatekeepers.

Jürgen Exactly. So if you go the soft route now and make a relaxed quip and get in that way, you often get brushed off more easily. We were talking about the rates. And the truth in sales, that's why I said you have to be ultra hardworking. The truth is: you open 20 doors a day, we're talking averages now, and 16 times they tell you, even if you were nice, or even if you were professionally hard and nailed a really great entrance, they still tell you: no, we don't need that, off you go. And of those four that are left, I'll probably present four times, and one of them, if I'm lucky, buys something from me. That's a realistic rate in direct sales. So that means I open 20 doors and at the end I've maybe sold once. And that's the best possible yield from direct sales and the best possible result.

Jürgen And that's why it's so hard to take. For a lot of people it's unbearable, because you simply have to live with 19 rejections, every day. With this "goodbye, we don't need it". And then of course you've got the young startup founder who thinks he has the most awesome product in the world and solves every problem at once, goes to five companies and they all say: piss off. Yeah, that's emotionally hard to take. And really he'd need to rip open 100 doors a week, write three to five orders, and that would be fine. And he could, too, if he just did it. But after the fifth, sixth slap in the face he's collected in one day, he stops opening doors. And starts doubting everything, and everything's difficult and blah blah blah. Then he runs off to trade fairs and stands passively at the booth and not a soul talks to him, even though he has the most awesome product. Smacked over the head again. And then he tries Google and Facebook. That's all expensive as hell, and the product is really hard to package emotionally. And Google, as you can see right now, does whatever it wants with you. They change their systems again, you drop out of the rankings, every click costs a fortune. So you slide into a dependency there. For my money, direct, personal sales is the best, the cheapest and the most effective. You just have to be able to handle the defeats.

What actually works: cold calls, emails or knocking on doors?

Kevin Really interesting. To get into that direct sales, there are lots of different approaches. There are cold calls, so you just go through the phone book, or these days online, and simply call your way through. You write emails, or like you say, you go straight to the company. What are the different approaches where you'd say this could work, this rarely works? What's your take on that?

Jürgen Well, I probably don't even need to go into it that much. You can piece it together yourself. If you write emails, how successful do you think that is? How many are you going to write? Where do you even get all those addresses? These days in Germany, not so easy, because it's simply not allowed. You can't just randomly write to whatever customers if they haven't given written consent beforehand. So this prospecting via email is really hard. Really hard, because the response rate is absolutely terrible, and you're trying to somehow warm up those cold contacts. Because of course you'd rather present warm than cold, that's obvious. But the supreme discipline is going to the customer cold, ripping the door open and walking out within an hour with a signed order. That's the supreme discipline. And once you've mastered that, you can of course try the other, watered-down sales channels too. But the supreme discipline, and that's the thing you have to be able to pull off, is going to the customer in person. With an employee you also only get one shot at a conversation. Or with a job applicant, ultra important these days, you get one shot. You can't dither around there either and warm the employee up beforehand. Forget it. You have to nail it in the moment. And there's no better school than ripping doors open and saying: here I am, I'd like to sell something, let's go, and setting off some fireworks.

Jürgen So you're asking which cold options there are? There's phone prospecting and there's in-person prospecting. Both really, really good routes, I think. Phone prospecting, here comes the bad news for your listeners: you have to make between 100 and 120 calls a day. Now think about whether you'd enjoy that. And whether you could keep it up, day in, day out. Back when I trained phone prospecting and did it myself, I was on two phones at the same time. And I simply saved myself the time it takes to say goodbye. When I sensed someone didn't want anything, I hung up. And I was already dialing on the other phone, running the next call. And then the same again, hung up again, no goodbye. And there's no need for a guilty conscience either. In all those thousands of calls I made, nobody ever called me back and said: you hung up on me. Of course the customer doesn't do that, because he's glad to be rid of you if he doesn't want your product. So my point is: you need 100, 120. At my peak I managed 150 calls a day. And then you're on the phone for ten hours straight, wolf down some food on the side, and with your mouth still full you're already calling the next customer so you can get to those appointments. So I do think phone prospecting is super effective, but genuinely hard. Genuinely hard to sustain. Doable, sure. People always say it's like a marathon. When you see them running around, it doesn't look all that sweat-inducing.

Kevin Yeah.

Jürgen But when you see the training, and when they're actually running and the pain they push through... It's exactly the same with prospecting. And on the phone it's much, much harder than in-person prospecting. I think in-person prospecting is more instructive, especially for young people, because you can read so much from the customer's face, from their expressions and gestures. And you can hardly do that on the phone. It's harder to get past the secretary.

Kevin Yeah.

Jürgen When you talk to a customer on the phone, the customer always holds the power: he can just hit the button and hang up. And then there's nothing you can do. When I'm standing in his office in person, [unclear]. There are three, four nos before I'm back out that door. That's harder for the customer. And I simply have maybe five, six minutes to build rapport. If I haven't managed it by then, I won't manage it at all. On the phone I have maybe 20, 30 seconds. Super hard. And I have no facial expressions, no gestures. So especially to these young people, I'd recommend doing it in person. It's grim, getting that rejection constantly. But that's the business. It's like back in the day when you went out to pick up girls. You didn't chat up two girls and have every second one come home with you. You chatted up 10, 15 in an evening. And 12, 13 of them said: kid, get me a drink and then get lost.

Kevin Interesting. Right. But is it really like that? You just walk up to your potential company at random, without even having had any first contact?

Jürgen Yes, exactly.

Kevin And hope a decision-maker has time?

Jürgen Yes, exactly. I walk in and say: here I am. So who's the boss around here? I'm a sales rep. I need to sell somebody something. And then it depends on how charming they find that. Like I said, the good rate is presenting three, four times a day. So 16 still tell me: piss off. You know?

Kevin Okay.

Jürgen But the real art behind it isn't finding the right words, that's what everyone keeps waiting for. They don't exist. The real art is enduring the pain. Enduring the pain of rejection. That's the art in sales.

How do you cope with the constant rejection?

Kevin Right. This might be a naive question. But how did you cope with that? Especially at the very start. I don't imagine you were always that hardened.

Jürgen No. [unclear] built up a protective wall. That's the crucial question for the young people who have to get out there now and land customers. Yes, exactly, that's exactly the point: all those conversations. In NLP you learn to mirror people, to respond to their gestures and expressions and watch closely what [unclear], whether he's quieter and reserved or outgoing, and you try to mirror him and take the lead. And of course you learn more of that with every conversation. And [unclear] probably this doing-it-over-and-over, and being pressed into a structure where many shared the same fate and we egged each other on during joint sales runs. And I think getting through that phase, maybe four to six weeks, that was the turning point.

Jürgen Before that I'd told myself: I studied media design, and I thought, a sales rep, that's got to be about the crappiest job there is in Germany, that's really grim. That was the image of a salesperson back then, 20 years ago. And then I realized: man, this sales thing is brilliant. It's huge fun, all these conversations, and bowling someone over. As a footballer you don't score a goal every minute either, maybe one per game. And that's roughly how I came to see it: if you write one order a day, that's a massive success, and that's how it was celebrated. I was right up there with the best newcomers, in a huge promotional products group. And it kept building on itself, and then I didn't want to leave anymore. [unclear] So I somehow stayed and, in the end, set aside what I'd done before. Because all the skills you'd built up there, you don't actually need them. I needn't have gone to the media academy, I could have come as a baker, it doesn't matter. There's nothing you can pin a salesperson down by.

How do you spot sales talent?

Jürgen We kept trying to figure out: what does a salesperson need to bring so that he actually sells? Because a salesperson who doesn't sell counts for nothing. So we ran every aptitude test under the sun, at great length, criteria and preselections and blah blah blah, and ten regional directors and 50 sales managers all gave their opinion on each hire. At our peak we hired 200 people, and of those we let 160, 170 go again in the first year, a real revolving door. Only 20, 30, 40 made it work. And how did we figure out who can do it and who can't? We didn't figure it out at all. My old board director, he was a great character, he said: let's make this really simple now. We take all the applications, lay them out on the floor, then we get a monkey from the zoo, and everyone he taps, we hire. That's how effective our selection was, the way we did it, complete chaos.

Jürgen You have to try it out. What I said earlier about this [unclear]: nobody knows whether you're a baker or have a degree, or whatever. There's nothing you can pin sales talent down by, you have to try it. And you can improve a bit, and what you do have to bring, and this you can train yourself in, not the presentation but the staying power, that's the decisive thing. If you manage that... Hard work always beats talent in sales, always. In the long run, hard work beats talent. And if you manage to put in that work and stomach those defeats, you will sell. And you just can't tell upfront: is this person willing to go through that pain or not? What would you even base that on?

Kevin Right, well, my hunch would be someone who comes from, I don't know, who's already done x startups, so from the startup world. He's maybe more familiar with failures, let's say. I don't know.

Jürgen Sure, but is he going to start at a new company as a sales rep?

Kevin Probably not, no.

Jürgen Of course, it's obvious to me that a sales rep with ten years on his back and a sales track record to show will sell, that's obvious. My point is about taking someone who's never worked in sales, training them and bringing them into sales. And getting them to the top, turning them into one of these top salespeople, that's the challenge. A young startup, but you can take a great salesperson... First, you can't afford that as a startup company, and second, you'll hardly be persuasive enough to get a top guy like that excited about your startup. At a late stage I believe it, but at an early stage, never.

Are there any no-gos in sales?

Kevin Interesting, okay. Yeah, I think it's a no-brainer, [unclear]. You have to be pretty good at an awful lot of things just to get to a certain point at all. Are there a few things where you'd say, do this and you're out? A few no-gos?

Jürgen No, I don't think so. Look, I had a phase where I'd walk in to customers with a cigarette in my mouth. Maybe I should explain: I used to train people, I worked as a sales trainer for a while, over two years. And there I taught, and did it myself: they should find out for once where their pain thresholds are. And if they get thrown out by a customer once a week, I think that's good. And it was ultra hard for them to find that point. They got thrown out maybe once a month, if at all. Some never, because they weren't looking for that point. And you're welcome to try it yourself: you'll hardly manage to be so cheeky that the customer says, right, now you've crossed a red line, and this is where it ends, you can see yourself out. I found that point, I found it daily if I wanted to. Because I simply had a higher pain threshold than others. But I tried to teach it to others, and it's simply not in their nature at all. And I actually think it's good that it isn't. I only did it to find my own limit, to feel it. Do you see what I mean?

Kevin Yes.

Jürgen Does any of this I'm saying actually make sense?

Kevin Yes, 100 percent. Just out of curiosity, I'd love to hear one of those stories, if you'd like to share one.

Jürgen Well, I can't tell those, because some of it is genuinely under wraps. I can't tell it, it's not good for my image, I think. But there were always colleagues along, ZAs, which stood for joint work visits with us. And in those phases of ZAs and training I had that streak big time. So there are plenty of stories going around about me, and most of them are true.

Kevin Brilliant.

Jürgen And not one of them is exaggerated either. Over the years things have naturally been dramatized a bit, but most of them are true at the core, definitely. So I really did get cheekier until the guy finally said: kid, you're crossing the line, out you go. But that genuinely took a long time. So, finding that point... That's why, no-gos in sales? I don't think so. I think it's a personal thing. You walk in and, you know, it's like meeting people in general: you meet ten people and one of them you just love. Whether it's a man or a woman, irrelevant, you simply like one of them, they just click with you. And it's exactly the same the other way round: you meet ten people and one of them you just can't stand. And the one you can't stand, by the way, can't stand you either, and you will never in your life sell him anything. So it does come down to finding customers who fit you. And with those you can basically do whatever you want. There are hardly any no-gos, you can hardly cross any lines when they like you, when you've found your own customers. That one in ten. Once you've found him, you can do almost anything with him. It's like a good friend, and over the years a friendship actually develops there too.

What's your parting advice for young salespeople?

Kevin Really interesting. Okay, well, this has been a very insightful conversation for me. Do you maybe have three things you'd give a young salesperson, or anyone really, to take away? Along the lines of: do this and you'll improve your chances of maybe landing the odd extra deal after all.

Jürgen Yeah, I think I've stressed it often enough by now, and I believe that's also the thing you can give a young salesperson. First, he has to get his ass over to the customer. Because from the couch, or from the office, or standing passively at a trade fair booth, there are no customers, you won't find any customers. So you have to be active. And you have to train yourself to endure pain, because the be-all and end-all in sales is being pain-resistant. If you manage that...

Kevin Yeah.

Jürgen And you handle that rejection and keep going to customers, putting in the work, you will write orders. Pinning that down to three things, I don't think you can. If you ask a successful salesperson, he says: I have no idea how I do it, I just do it. He has no idea, he can't explain it to me. We also invited top salespeople to trainings and seminars, tried to analyze them, categorize them. It's all nonsense. The top salesperson can say just as little about it as Cristiano Ronaldo. The system of play works, and that's about as far as it goes, that much is clear. And the salesperson also roughly knows how he gets to the close. But he can't train anyone to be as good as he is. You know?

Kevin Mhm.

Jürgen And Messi can't train anyone as a footballer to be as good as Messi either. There's only one Messi, and it's the same with salespeople. It's one of the hardest jobs I know, and that I've ever done myself. Entrepreneurship is much easier, because the skills I lack, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a tax advisor, but I can hire all of that. I'm not a bookkeeper. Yes, I trained as an office administrator at some point too, but I can buy that in. If I need a bookkeeper, I buy in a bookkeeper. A top salesperson you cannot buy in if you're not a salesperson yourself. There's no way around this point: if you want to be an entrepreneur, you have to be the best salesperson in the company. And if you're not, leave it. Get a job, then you'll get through life reasonably well, but you won't be an entrepreneur. If you choose that sales route, that is. If you have other sales ideas, of course, and you say: I'll do my stuff through Google or Facebook. Sure, I don't know my way around that, it's not my core topic either. I don't know it, it may well work. But if you go via selling, where I have to bring it in personally, where I personally have to bring employees into my company and get them excited to work for me... And today that's at least as important as finding customers, if not more important, finding good people. In the end, that comes down to selling too. And that only works if you can take the pain, and ten people a day telling you: come on kid, pack up your stuff and get lost, this is going nowhere. And you go to the eleventh and the twelfth.

Kevin Love it. Fail, try, repeat. Very cool. Well, Jürgen, thanks for your time. I really enjoyed the conversation. And with that I'd say: thanks everyone for watching. Take care.

Jürgen You too. All the best for the future. And we'll talk again.

Kevin Thanks.

Jürgen Take care. Ciao.